Comments on: Nationalism can be a force of good https://www.zeus.aegee.org/debate/nationalism-can-be-a-force-of-good/ What is the hardest task in the world? To think. Ralph Waldo Emerson Thu, 16 Oct 2014 23:44:23 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5 By: Armin Weckmann https://www.zeus.aegee.org/debate/nationalism-can-be-a-force-of-good/#comment-38272 Armin Weckmann Sat, 08 Mar 2014 11:47:03 +0000 https://www.zeus.aegee.org/debate/index-291.html#comment-38272 PS: I took the wrong date – in the last paragraph I am referring to Luis’ comment on the 7th of March…

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By: Armin Weckmann https://www.zeus.aegee.org/debate/nationalism-can-be-a-force-of-good/#comment-38270 Armin Weckmann Sat, 08 Mar 2014 11:30:37 +0000 https://www.zeus.aegee.org/debate/index-291.html#comment-38270 Hei

Though I oppose Mariia in this question I feel like take up the cudgels for her because I think both the question and her argument – as well as the whole concept of a nation as such – may be misunderstood.

About the first point, Ivan made it already clear that the question does not imply an answer and since nationalism (esp. with the European crisis AND the EU elections!) is an important point in the political agenda, AEGEE should also discuss this. Again, just watching the coin from one side doesn’t provide the whole picture, does it?

About Mariia’s arguments – which are linked to the concept of “the nation” in my opinion (and thus to the third point I mentioned at the top):
Nationalism, as I wrote myself, does not necessarily mean exclusion. Actually it can mean exactly the opposite; it depends on the society and whether they are more “inclusive” or “exclusive”.
Also, I must strongly disagree on calling the concept of a nation “ridiculous” (this points now esp. to Luis’ comment on 3rd March):
Societies of all kind form from identities – the family, the clan/tribe, the village, the city, the city state/kingdom (f.e. ancient Uruk and Greece), the nation/kingdom. These things are roughly a “level-up” of the former phase, if you like. Next would be: international/continent bonds (EU, UNASUR etc.), finally world society/humanity (UN). For the remote future we might even be forced to look beyond the border of your planet…
Pure national thinking is outdated in our times here in Europe, but for some regions of the world thinking in structures higher than tribes just makes no sense (one problem of making Afghanistan a functioning nation, actually).
All in all, just looking at nations will not give you the whole picture of human societies and how they work — but neither will you see the whole picture, if you exclude “the nation”…
(That is basically what I meant as I drew the conclusion: “Nevertheless nationalism (especially the inclusive form) may have positive effects for the majority of a nation, hence the statement at the very beginning cannot be completely falsified.”)

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By: Luis https://www.zeus.aegee.org/debate/nationalism-can-be-a-force-of-good/#comment-38026 Luis Fri, 07 Mar 2014 11:50:46 +0000 https://www.zeus.aegee.org/debate/index-291.html#comment-38026 nationalism is just a ridiculous idea derived from another ridiculous concept called “Nation”.

If we understand that the further ago, the more ignorant we were, all this divisions, and the understanding of our history only means how NOT to do things, and all these divisions are what cause so much trouble. Us, the normal people, are the ones that are limited by this imaginary boundaries, and people like the Latvian, mentioned by Mariia, they have to go to other countries and leave their families and friends behind in search of better opportunities. Do you think convincing them to stay and reinforcing some shit nationalism in a country where unfortunately these people can’t find good opportunities is the solution?

Acknowledging that we are all the same, no matter the color of the eyes, hair, race, sex, age, religion, etc, etc is to understand we are all together in this world. There shall not be any boundaries and instead there should be an open exchange of different cultural traditions, arts, knowledge, etc…

Anyway, I just wanted to say that none of the arguments of Mariia are neither valid nor logical. If you believe that the actual state of the world is anywhere near a positive example to follow and to continue the examples of history, then you just don’t have a clue about the world you are living in. Half of the population of the world lives with less than 2 dollars per day, and im pretty sure that around 93% of the world live with less than 10 dollars a day. I guess thats the evolution that ideas like nationalism has brought to us, the way of bringing scarcity to the most of the world :D keep the good thinking girl, one day u might be the next führerin.

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By: Ivan https://www.zeus.aegee.org/debate/nationalism-can-be-a-force-of-good/#comment-37863 Ivan Thu, 06 Mar 2014 15:03:41 +0000 https://www.zeus.aegee.org/debate/index-291.html#comment-37863 I will react only to the objection concerning the motion as I was moderator of the debate.
Firstly, the fact that AEGEE is European student organization promoting European values does not necessarily mean we cannot discuss phenomenon of nationalism. The EU was built upon nation-states and they were results of national movements. To discuss such issue is therefore necessary to understand the past and what formed our present as well. If you think AEGEE shouldn’t tackle such problem, then why was there the topic of EBM 2014 Nationalism? Moreover, the motion does not state that nationalism IS a force of good. It states nationalism CAN be a force of good and therefore offers space to both sides to argue about the topic. In case you disagree with the motion, it is perfectly legitimate. But do not imply from that fact that we cannot talk about it in AEGEE (I guess one of the European values is also freedom of expression in case you are not offending anyone, isn’t it?).
Secondly, if you say that “we could be German, Dutch, Spanish, Italians, etc… and be at the same time Europeans” you recognize the fact we have multiple identities of ours. Additionally, you recognize that having national identity is fine for AEGEE members. But then I do not understand your objection not to talk about nationalism, which formed such identities. If you are feeling you are belonging to Europe (particular part of the world), you feel the same feeling in case you belong to a particular nation of the world. But then why should not we talk about state nationalism, but we should talk about European nationalism?
Thirdly, more technically, debate motion should be formed by controversial statement, because a question is neutral in the nature. Controversial statement (such as in this debate) immediately creates two sides of the debate. Therefore, every debate contains statement as a motion, not a question as a motion.

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By: Mario https://www.zeus.aegee.org/debate/nationalism-can-be-a-force-of-good/#comment-37715 Mario Wed, 05 Mar 2014 17:59:49 +0000 https://www.zeus.aegee.org/debate/index-291.html#comment-37715 I strongly disagree with the motion and I will explain you why. But before, I just want to say one thing: to be honest with you, I am shocked by the very fact that AEGEE poses the question in such terms – actually it is not even a question as the title reads “nationalism can be a force for good” without question marks. When I first read the title of this post I had to slap my face twice to make sure I was not hallucinating. What has happened to AEGEE? Weren’t we the promoters of a European identity? Weren’t we the ones who believed we could be German, Dutch, Spanish, Italians, etc… and be at the same time Europeans and citizens of the world?

Mariia, I am sure you are well-meaning, especially when you wish for people in our societies to have a shared project, a common vision of their collective future. However, I’m afraid nationalism is not the answer. History shows us that the mixture of rising nationalism and economic crisis, like in our current times, can be devastating (and cannot be stopped once set in motion). The example you chose to prove that nationalism is good for the economy is totally inaccurate. After WWI, Germany entered one of worst economic crises in its history – which is the reason why nationalists eventually came to power. Yes, re-armament gave jobs to some people, but that was a very small benefit compared to the devastation of the war caused by re-armament (and yes, nationalist ideas). Germany had a miracolous economic recovery after WW2, once nationalism had finally been rejected and the country (West Germany, to be precise) became fully integrated in the European single market. By contrast, after WWI, nationalists believed every nation could survive with its own means (a dangerous idea called ‘autharky’). This meant European countries shut economic relations with one another, trade decresed by almost 90 %, this further exacerbated the crisis and paved the way to the war. The example of Switzerland shows that these ideas are still very strong. At times of economic crisis, there can be no good nationalism. When people do not have jobs, they find someone to blame, foreigners and minorities are all too often the easy target. Hence nationalisms, which make us blind to the fact that migrants contribute far more to the economy than they take away in social benefits.

We have to be very careful with these arguments, nationalism is a sleeping beast, a bit like the dragon Smaug in The Hobbit, if it wakes up, it will be hard for us to stop it and have a meaningful conversation with it. History teaches the hard lesson…

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